It’s the Wheel of Time Reread Redux, where the term “cloak and dagger”… er, would be applied a little more literally than in some cases. But the segue is, espionage! Capers! Really wild things!
Yeah, I swear this was going to be a wittier intro (or at least one that made actual sense), but then my brain defected… to the Soviets. Look, I got nothing. Sorry!
BUT ANYWAY, today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 32 and 33 of The Great Hunt, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay!
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 32: Dangerous Words
Redux Commentary
ESPIONAGE. Yay!
“I like to walk.” Rand wondered how to follow Verin’s advice, and remembering what she had said about his visit to the Amyrlin, he settled into Cat Crosses the Courtyard. He knew no more arrogant way to walk than that. Barthanes’s mouth tightened, and Rand thought perhaps the lord found it too arrogant, but Verin’s advice was all he had to go by, so he did not stop.
This passage never fails to make me cackle with glee, and also makes me very sorry that (unless I’m mistaken, which is quite possible) this is the last time Cat Crosses the Courtyard is mentioned in the series. I suppose after some point Rand acquired enough natural surety (and arrogance) that he didn’t have to fake it anymore. Which is fine, but I miss picturing this walk, because I find it hilarious.
Actually this entire bit is (still) hysterical, with Barthanes reading immense meaning into every random bland statement Rand makes. Had I been in Rand’s place I might have been really hard-pressed to refrain from saying something completely insane just to see what he would do with it. “Well, my Lord, I have heard that” [sotto voce] “diggy said the boogie. Said, up jump the boogie. Probably just a rumor.”
Snerk. This is probably why I am not cut out for undercover caper work. But as I said in the original commentary, I sure do enjoy reading fiction about it. Even more so when it comes with a fancy epic fantasy candy coating!
“Those eyes. That hair. I have heard the Andoran royal line has almost Aiel coloring in their hair and eyes.”
Rand stumbled, though the floor was smooth marble. “I’m not Aiel, Lord Barthanes, and I’m not of the royal line, either.”
OR, the complete opposite of that statement. Foreshadowing, huzzah!
As for the following “cougar Ladies” bit being played for comedy, I’d like to be annoyed by it, except for how it totally is a thing that happens, and it really is pretty funny. Among the many things that are not precluded or excluded by gender, “being a skeezy creeper” is unfortunately one of them.
…Though it is worth pointing out that there is no way that Rand feels physically threatened by these creeper ladies, which is actually why the scene can be played for laughs. This would not at all be the case were the genders of the participants flipped—or at least I seriously doubt it would strike me as funny. So there’s that.
Also funny: Thom being taken aback that Rand doesn’t want him on his Ocean’s Eleven team. Yeah, you’re totally retired, dude. Suuuure.
Chapter 33: A Message from the Dark
Redux Commentary
“Did you bring Ingtar and the others down already?”
The sniffer shook his head. “Lord Ingtar had let himself be cornered by six or seven of those who call themselves ladies. I couldn’t get close enough to speak to him. And Verin Sedai was with Barthanes. She gave me such a look when I came near, I never even tried to tell her.”
Exchanging Darkfriend countersigns, maybe? If so, then yeah, I guess that’s the kind of thing you really don’t want overheard.
Mat swept a low bow, and his voice was heavy with sarcasm. “At once, my Lord. As my Lord wishes. Shall I carry your banner, my Lord?” He started back for the manor, his grumbles fading away. “Now I have to limp. Next it’ll be a broken neck, or… ”
“He’s just worried about the dagger, Rand,” Loial said.
“I know,” Rand said. But how long before he tells somebody what I am, not even meaning to? He could not believe Mat would betray him on purpose; there was that much of their friendship left, at least.
I kind of feel like this “Mat betraying Rand” thing that kept getting hinted at in the first few books was a shoe that never actually got dropped… and maybe should have, from a story-telling point of view.
Chekhov’s Gun is an overly popular narrative trope that critics love to apply a bit too well, perhaps (God knows I’ve brought it up enough times), but its core tenet still holds true: If you set up or introduce a thing in your story, and then never follow through with the thing, then the thing should really not have been there to begin with. If Mat’s unreliability had only been a passing thought in Rand’s mind once, that would have been one thing, but this is a thing that gets touched on over and over again in the first two books, and therefore the fact that it never became a plot point is really rather surprising.
This is not to say that I wanted Mat to betray Rand, naturally. On a human, emotional, I-am-invested-in-these-characters level, that’s obviously the last thing that I would want. But as a writer and critic, the fact that it didn’t happen… well, it feels like it’s a rifle on the wall that never got fired, and that’s… well, that’s a bit of a fail, honestly. Life is full of random irrelevant shit that never goes anywhere, which is precisely why stories should not be. That is, in a weird way, the point of made-up stories: that they have the rhyme and reason real life does not.
Of course, it’s one thing to grandly declare “no extraneous firearms!” when you are writing one, singular, contained story that will not see the light of day until it is finished and polished and excess-cruft-removed to the author’s heart’s content, and quite another when you must send the first or second (or, er, third through thirteenth) part of your story out into the world before the last part is finished or even written. At that point there has to be at least some concession to reality, which is that there is, quite simply, a certain inevitable loss of control there which practically guarantees that at some point, some stuff is going to fall by the wayside, whether you want it to or not. Such is the burden of the serially published writer.
Moving on.
…blood so sweet, so sweet to drink the blood, the blood that drips, drips, drops so red; pretty eyes, fine eyes, I have no eyes, pluck the eyes from out of your head; grind your bones, split your bones inside your flesh, suck your marrow while you scream; scream, scream, singing screams, sing your screams… And worst of all, a whispering thread through all the rest. Al’Thor. Al’Thor. Al’Thor.
The Black Wind is another thing that was ultimately left a little vague as to its exact hows and whys and wherefores, but all things considered I’m pretty okay with that. I mean, some things just do better without detailed provenances, otherwise it’s the equivalent of killing the joke by explaining it. Basically I’m pretty happy with thinking of Machin Shin as the toxic black mold that grows when you install mystical infrastructure with substandard and taint-leaking One Power tools (haha, I so clever), and leaving it at that.
Verin and Ingtar were standing together, and thus also alone. Ingtar looked a little dazed.
I’m probably reading way too much into all this, but now I really want to know whether Verin revealed her Shadowy allegiances to both Barthanes and Ingtar at the party. She probably didn’t, but I think it would be kind of awesome if she had.
But the point is: off to Toman Head! And more Fain! HOORAY
And that’s what I got for you today, meine Kinder! Auf Wiedersehen for now, and I will be back next Tuesday with more!
Leigh, I disagree with you on your analysis of Mat. Mat’s image of unreliability was something that he projected as a means of having to get away with responsibility. However, when the circumstances were truly dire, Mat came through (even before he went through the second red-framed doorway. He saved the girl he thought was drowning when he was younger; he helped Rand get through the power sickness in TEotW; he rescued Aldora when he and Thom were safely hidden in the hayloft, etc.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
“Ingtar looked a little dazed.”
Knowing what we do about Sneaky Verin and her proto-Compulsive ways, could she have discerned Ingtar’s allegiance (and possible reticence) and given him a bit of a nudge in the Light direction? Or at least in a “support Rand” one (which is roughly the same thing)?
I actually got into a discussion (online; on a journaling site I frequent) with a guy once about the idea of unwanted sexual advances. He had written that he literally can’t conceive of that notion; why would a sexual advance be unwanted? And then he mentioned, well, on the other hand, a friend he had helped had offered some sexual favor in thanks, but he wasn’t interested, so he declined. I pointed out the difference was that he was free to politely decline and go on his way, whereas for many women, they have to worry about being harassed, cajoled, stalked, threatened, insulted, repeatedly asked to reconsider, etc if they refuse. He was, ‘yeah, I see your point’.
Maybe Ingtar is affected by being cornered by all those women.
@Lisamarie, That must have been a pretty good friend;)
In regards to Mat, I tend to think that Jordan was portraying him as the ultimate screw-up, one whose best friends didn’t even think that much of him, so that he could play that same person for laughs when he kept getting responsibility thrust on him. It wasn’t that he was going to betray Rand, it was that Rand thought that he was dumb enough to do it.
@@@@@ Lisamarie – you’re forgetting Rand’s hangups about hurting women. It is something he is physically incapable of doing at this point in the story. If he will not hurt a woman even in defense of his own life, then he is even more helpless than a woman would be were the roles reversed.
Even if the block is self-inflicted and entire psychological, instead of a true physical deficiency, from Rand’s perspective these women will still be perfectly capable of forcing him into something he does not want to do (e.g. sleep with the, or make some sort of move to extricate himself that might involve physically harming them).
Hi Mods,
This post isn’t showing up in the index. Would you be kind enough to alert the person responsible.
Thanks!
@6 – I wasn’t really talking about Rand specifically, I was just commenting on Leigh’s observation that in general these types of things can be played for laughs with men because there is generally no threat involved (note, I tend to agree with Leigh that the Tylin/Mat scenario is just not funny at all and is basically rape – so I am not making a case that women NEVER threaten men or that it’s ALWAYS funny), whereas for women it’s harder to play for laughs (if at all) because there’s almost always that worry about threat (even if the specific man in question is not being threatening or intending to be so, it’s just something on the whole you have to worry about more, and as the woman you can’t always tell which scenario you’re in!)
But, that is an interesting point regarding Rand specifically and how he would react if the women WERE the more threatening type.
Re: Verin revealing her Shadowy allegiances to both Barthanes and Ingtar.
I think she wouldn’t, unless absolutely necessary, because she is a double-agent. There is value in keeping your true allegiance tightly held when operating in that mode. The DF organizational structure with cells of 3 certainly helps in that respect. Edit: As Jason_UmmaMacabre @12 points out, Cells of 3 was definitely a BA thing, though not necessarily applicable to all of DF-dom. Nevertheless, the less said, the better.
That’s classic, Leigh.
I agree with Andrew. Mat is also under the influence of the dagger–so long as that was the case betrayal was a real possibility. As for Chekhov’s Gun, . . . I believe red herring is the more applicable term in this instance. Jordan left a lot of those. They certainly aren’t bad writing.
^^ Yes, agree.
@Ways, I was under the impression that the groups of three was relegated to the Black Ajah, not darkfriends as a whole. Either way, I agree with you that she would have kept her allegiance secret.
Jordan liked his red herrings. Like Gaidal Cain disappearing from the world of dreams, and then we meeting Olver, who’s not him, but is also another ugly kid. Or the tinkers Mat finds in Lord of Chaos, who had written “Tell the Dragon Reborn” and never actually completed the sentence. Wheel of Time is also an experiment in making a epic fantasy series where there are threads which are left unresolved, or don’t add up, like the real world.
@Ryamano, Speaking for myself, I actually liked the fact that a lot of questions were left unanswered. It would have seemed pretty contrived if everything would have been tied up in a big bow at the end. That being said, there are things I wish would have been fleshed out post Tarmon Gai’don.
Was the possibility of Mat’s betrayal of Rand ever brought up again after they went through the Portal Stone on the way to Falme? I think after they arrived on the other side, when Mat said to Rand that he would never betray him, that was the last reference to it.
There is one more time when “Cat Crosses The Courtyard” is used, when Valda walks up to meet Galad at the start of their duel he used “Cat Crosses The Courtyard” and Galad assumes a different walking stance called “Emptiness.”
But that’s all the way to KoD’s prologue and even then it’s Valda who uses it. Rand has nothing to do with the scene.
Yes, I agree that undercover, cloak & dagger, everyone reading far to much into our innocent farm boy’s words is highly amusing. It is what makes these chapters so deliciously fun to read.
Hammerlock@2, that is actually a really good supposition about Verin using her pseudo-compulsion on Ingtar, I never thought of that. I’m not sure there is really a good reason for it, as Ingtar is already in the ‘Must get Horn back and restore my honor’ mode that coincides with helping Rand.
In hind sight, Verin sharing her darkfriend credentials with Lord Barthanes makes a lot of sense after the reveal in the Gather Storm, but was not really clear before that. It may have been used as some (weak) evidence that she was BA before then, iirc.
I’m kind of leaning more toward Red Herring than Checkov’s Gun for Mat as well. Even before the dagger he was established as being more ‘unreliable’ in the sense of letting his mouth catch up with his thoughts: Thom & Rand having to shush him up in the baths at Baerlon comes to mind. Add the dagger taint and that is a real possibility to add narrative tension.
I had a good giggle at One Power tools, because I came across a sketch the other day of Elayne wielding a chainsaw, based on a current first-time reader’s use of ‘Power Tools’ as a nickname for *greal.
As for Machin Shin, a pet theory of mine was that it was an amalgamation of some of the thought-undercurrents of those who went mad from the taint. Consider, for instance, “singing screams, sing your screams” as the sort of subconscious thought the man who killed the Aiel at Tzora might have had. (The timelines don’t match up on that one, but it serves to illustrate my point. It could have absorbed some of the thought-threads of madness from the men who built the Ways, who were likely on the way to madness themselves).
Still reading Leigh. Just waiting for things to get a touch more interesting as we progress through. As much as the early books are fun and can still make my spine tingle, I feel like I’m a bit of a bobblehead with your second go around the WoT. Yup, that was a good moment. That too. And another one. Yup.
The cell structure was Black Ajah, and certainly at least one organization used something similar, but I think the BA would use secret recognition signals (like the thumb-to-pinky bit) to find other DFs to order around. Verin, specifically, would be less likely to do something that would violate her low-profile thang.
Wasn’t Verin’s psuedo-compulsion a very slow process? I don’t think she would be doing something like that anywhere that someone could walk in on her. I’m pretty sure that she is discussing DF stuff with both Barthanes and Ingtar. Which is great! Verin being a BA double agent is one of the few reveals late in the series that gives us a chance to re-evaluate scenes earlier in the series.
I love these scenes, Rand playing the great game by accident is just great comedy. Strangely, I love a lot of scenes in the Great Hunt, but overall the book just ends up being middling; I’m not exactly sure why. I guess the connective tissue between all these great scenes is poor.
These three chapters- including last week’s- are fantastic. The way Jordan handles Rand, Mat and Perrin is flawless here. Especially Perrin. I really think that character got away from him towards the end although it’s something he began rectifying in Knife of Dreams. Perrin is so insightful here in a way that he fails to be in his own (much) later dealings especially anything considering Faile. Not to mention that while he still later retains skill as an intermediary, that aspect of his is undermined by an inexplicable amount of overwhelming self-doubt.
Regarding Mat: I honestly feel he does betray Rand. The way their relationship develops, he is no longer true friends with Rand by the end of the series. He is loyal, sure. But loyalty and friendship are not the same thing. I felt that their brief reunion in A Memory of Light just went to show what used to be, not what is. Not to mention that setting aside the personal, his dealings with the Seanchan are… morally ambiguous at best.
And yet another instance of Randlanders “knowing” something that is (almost certainly) not true: Verin’s assertion that Machin Shin could not be cajoled or ordered to do something. For me, the addition of “Al’Thor, Al’Thor, Al’Thor” to the end of the Black Wind’s rant is proof that Fain could indeed order Machin Shin to do something.
Fain didn’t order Machin Shin to do anything. He didn’t even know about it. It is just a side effect of the time when Machin Shin caught Fain on his first trip through the Ways. It is similar to how Fain knows parts of Ishy’s plans because of what Ishy did to him.
re: Mat’s betrayal
I don’t agree that it is a Chekov’s Gun. As others already said, it’s more of a Red Herring. And it’s not like it doesn’t serve a purpose. It informs the way other perceive and interact with Mat for most of the series.
And I would argue that Mat is aware of it and that this, coupled with his Portal Stone experience, is the catalyst for his personal growth into a more responsible character.
@3 lisamarie
re: sexual advances
From a guy’s point of view I guess all initial sexual advances are considered flattering by default. Unless they’re like “Ugly dudes with small peepees turn me on. I want you to tear my clothes off!”, that might cause a little indignation.
But I don’t get how your discussion guy manages to overlook that for guys too there are countless situations and ways to make those advances very, VERY much unwanted. Be it repeated advances despite you not being interested (read: stalking) or it happening in front of other people who you’d really prefer not to see it (like your significant other) or it being your batshit insane ex or a million gajillion other possibilities that turn that thing from “ooooooh yeah” into “WTF? Donotwant!!!”…
@25 – I know, right! I mean, on the whole, women have a little more to worry about in that regard, but it’s not like this never ever happens to men. Of course it’s possible he was being hyperbolic. Anyway…your comment made me laugh. LOL.
#25 – @Randalator: That’s exactly what I was going to comment. In fact, I’ve experienced more than one of the scenarios you listed. For the record, crazy ex girlfriends are only amusing in retrospect. Long, distant retrospect, years later. :)
I recall Leigh saying that Verin being a double-agent wasn’t a theory she’d come across before – which means that this comment by aidanyoung1102 deserves at least a couple of internet cookies.
re: unwanted sexual advances
A book on the phenomenon of the Other Woman I read a long time ago mentioned that a man who declines a woman’s interest is likely to have his masculinity questioned – by said woman, and most probably by every other woman she spills the beans to. Plus of course there’s that Shakespearean observation: Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned.
So between questioning the man’s masculinity for not caring for said random female, and her rousing the battalions, I guess a lot of female attention turns out to be “wanted” after all. But you’d never know just from looking.
@29 Narg
I think unwanted sexual advances are most likely an inevitability for just about everyone who lives long enough.
@30 wcarter
Now, wanted sexual advances on the other hand…
The espionage and politicking is fun, and always has been to me. It’s less fun to think of the awful things that have happened because of it (the mess in Andor during the Succession Crisis, Laman’s Sin and the Aiel War) or are going to happen (Cairhien after Couladin and the Tower Aes Sedai, Tear, Andor after Rahvin), but the actual process of everyone being so convinced everyone has an agenda and seeing conspiracies everywhere is indeed hilarious. The fact Barthanes is still part of it despite being a Darkfriend suggests to me that he is rather like Sheriam, Aravine, and others who joined just for the power and perks, since otherwise you would think he wouldn’t care about such things any more. Of course the Black Ajah and Forsaken still scheme and plot despite their allegiance, and old habits die hard, but still, Barthanes never seemed worse to me than any other sneaky noble in the series.
You know Jordan was cackling to himself at Rand’s denial of being a royal as well as an Aiel, when he’s actually both. I know because I do much the same when writing dramatic irony in my own work.
Re: the noblewomen–yup, even if the gender-flipped version isn’t, this is still funny. Rather reminds me of the running gag in Eddings’ Belgariad/Malloreon where women keep going after an eligible man (first Garion, then Zakath) and someone else has to make up lies about him to get the women to leave him alone. For even more fun, the lies had to do with a hereditary madness! If Rand had only thought to use that… ;)
Side note: while I agree that Breane’s resurfacing in Caemlyn after this has to take the cake for odd randomness (I believe the explanation is the death of Galldrian and the civil war causes her to lose everything/fear for her life, so she flees to Andor), reading the names of the other noblewomen, fresh off re-reading ToM, lets me approve of Team Jordan maintaining continuity that late in the game: Chuliandred and Osiellin are two of the houses named as still having it in for Rand, and thus possibly behind the plotting and rumors against Elayne when she’s trying to take the Sun Throne. In which case, it would seem their reason for such enmity is entirely because of Rand rebuffing Alaine and Belevaere here. Which also means that as much as Elayne can have no problem with Rand handing her the Sun Throne, she still has reason to resent him–for making things more difficult with those houses, rather than for daring to offer her the Lion Throne. Yet if she knew how/why he had done so, she’d actually fully approve, I bet. Hah!
Thom’s reaction reminds me of a funny non-sexual/flirtatious version of Aren’t You Going to Ravish Me? He was all set to tell Rand off again, insist he won’t help him or be part of the Great Game again, but the minute Rand tells him he had no intention of asking that again and was only using him as an excuse to get away from the women, suddenly he’s all “I don’t want to help, I won’t help, but you didn’t even consider asking me again? I’m offended.” Of course this becomes less funny when Rand just having been seen talking to Thom is what leads Galldrian to send men to kill Dena…
Brief side note: I know it’s probably all meant to be part of the whole air of intrigue in Cairhien, but I always wondered who it was Rand heard leaving when he, Loial, and Hurin come out of the garden. Part of me wanted to say it was either Ingtar or Verin, but even assuming they were able to hide their knowledge of what they may have witnessed near the garden (Verin easily could; Ingtar not so much), how could either of them have made it back to join the other in time? Which makes me think, by process of elimination and her tendency to be constantly sneaking around and spying on Rand, that it was Lanfear. We know she knew what inn Rand was staying at, and so would have known when the Horn was stolen, and either by Darkfriend contacts could have learned of Barthanes or just plain followed Rand. This would also explain how she knew about Falme so as to show up there at the end of the book.
Mat’s comment about carrying Rand’s banner becomes rather hilarious as of AMoL. As for the constant suspicion he might betray Rand which never comes to pass…it’s possible Jordan considered having it happen, then changed his mind, but I suspect it’s less a Chekhov’s Gun which was never fired and more one that, after being put on the wall, was emptied of ammo so as to no longer be a threat–specifically, that the Portal Stone sequence and what was experienced there was enough to scare Mat straight. I.e., that the betrayal, especially inadvertent, was indeed in danger of happening, but seeing the consequences in the parallel worlds trimmed off that story branch before it could happen. That and of course being Healed fully of the dagger removed the last of its suspicious distrustful influence from Mat. In which case, the Portal Stone sequence served far more purposes than we realized besides just getting them to Falme at the wrong (right) time, giving Rand the means to get to the Waste in TSR, and showing Verin, Rand, Ingtar, and Masema more of their fates (something that probably galvanized Verin in her actions, made Rand aware of his cyclical role through the Ages, probably helped bring Ingtar back to the Light, and unfortunately probably also influenced Masema to become the Prophet).
Machin Shin: still creepy as hell. I do hope if WOT ever gets made into a proper series, they can do its disturbing horror justice.
I bet Verin did in fact reveal herself to Barthanes and that’s why she didn’t want Hurin near. I don’t think she did to Ingtar but then I am hard pressed to guess why he looked so dazed when Rand and the others rejoined them. Maybe Barthanes gave him some order from the Shadow, separate from his conversation with Verin?
Hooray is the last word I’d think of in connection to more Fain, but I suspect that was sarcastic on Leigh’s part. :P
@2 Hammerlock Now that’s a possibility I never thought of. Quite believable and likely. On the other hand, even if it was only a nudge, I have to think that such a thing would rob Ingtar somewhat of the nobility of his final choice, if he had to be pushed/influenced into it. Of course, Verin’s Compulsion only works when the person can find a reason to obey, and my suggestion above about the Portal Stone jaunt similarly posits an outside “nudge” to make him change his course, so I guess it’s okay in the end. Because either way something was needed to make him rethink his future, but he was still the one who then made the choice afterward.
@@.-@ birgit: LOL! Or it could be as simple and mundane as that. This is what happens when we start indulging in Daes Dae’mar-like speculation ourselves, we overlook common answers.
@10 hjpace: Obviously, agreed about the dagger. And yes, red herring does make more sense, though I still think it’s not completely pointless (other than to distract and mislead) like most red herrings, but a case of something that could have happened until the Pattern was changed (by the Portal Stone traveling, then by Mat being Healed of the dagger).
@15 Simka: As far as I can recall, no, hence my theory about why Mat’s betrayal never manifested.
@17 gadget: Good point, especially since that was pre-dagger.
@18 emuriya: LOL! And interesting, I never thought about that. We are pretty sure Machin Shin’s existence and nature has something to do with the taint, we just don’t know what or how. But that’s as good a theory as any.
@21 Drunken5yearold: Oh that’s right, I forgot about that. Scratch that theory then. Then I guess we’re back to him being dazed by something Barthanes said, or by Verin revealing her allegiance (though why would she? But I can see why he’d be stunned, what with the high regard Borderlanders hold Aes Sedai…then again, he was at the Darkfriend social and must have recognized there were Aes Sedai there…). Or all the predatory women!
@22 givemeraptors: Good point. The betrayal didn’t have to be as obvious or dire as the Portal Stones or Rand and Perrin’s suspicions led us to believe.
@23 BillinHI: Well it’s possible the Black Wind just picked up that overwhelming obsession from the maddened Fain’s mind, as Emuriya suggested above with the maddened male Aes Sedai. Because otherwise I can’t think why Fain would deliberately do that. I mean yes, if the Black Wind kills Rand or drives him mad, he still has his revenge, and it’s not like he wouldn’t enjoy killing Rand’s family/scouring the Shire the Two Rivers, but why bother telling Rand to come and face him if he was going to make it impossible for him to do so? Irony/torment points?
@28 bungo: Well! He wasn’t quite right as to the how or why of it, but he deserves more than just a cookie for that theory. Of course I bet a lot of people did consider she might be one (I was one of them) but even then, the exact mechanism (joined under coercion, then decided to bring them down from within and thus was secretly of the Light all along) was not guessed.
The men who killed Dena didn’t know about anything happening at Barthanes’ manor. They found Thom because of Rand’s first visit at his inn.
@18 – I agree; I have a vague memory of reading someone or some character speculating that The Ways turned evil for that very reason.
@25 – Dude, I am still ROTFL after that comment!
@29 – That’s where I was going to go, but you getting there means I don’t have to. Thanks, 1 less trip to make!
I’ve been banned from commenting on the newest Re-Re-Read thread, for some reason. Could someone tell me why?
@35 Ryamano – You’ve definitely not been banned. It was just a problem with our spam filter, which we’re working on fixing right now. Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for your patience!
Cat Crosses the Courtyard has been ruined for me